0:00 Hi, everyone.
0:01 Welcome back to the Change Your Mind podcast.
0:03 I'm your host, Kris Ashley.
0:05 I explore the intersection between personal development, spirituality and science.
0:09 I'm really excited for my guests today.
0:11 We have a dream interpreter with us.
0:13 I have so many questions myself.
0:15 So it's gonna be a really fun episode.
0:17 First couple of quick announcements.
0:19 If you head over to the links in my show notes, you'll find a link for my book, Change Mind to Change Your Reality.
0:25 It was endorsed by John Gray, Bob Doyle Michael Beckwith Marcy Shimoff, Anita Marjai.
0:31 Go check it out.
0:33 You'll also find links to my free workshops, free downloads off my website courses, coaching ways to connect and of course all of my guest links as well.
0:43 because I think you're gonna want to connect with this one.
0:45 Hi, I'm Kris.
0:47 When I was younger, I went through trauma that caused me to feel broken and lost.
0:51 But my life changed after I had a spiritual awakening.
0:55 Since then, I've dedicated my life to studying and learning from masters all around the world that have helped me to create a life of fulfillment and abundance beyond my wildest dreams.
1:04 Now I'm dedicated to sharing everything I've learned so that you don't have to suffer for decades.
1:09 Like I did, I've seen people's lives completely transform and I share it all right here.
1:17 All right.
1:17 So with me today, I have Doctor Michael Lennox.
1:21 So doctor Michael Lennox is a psychologist, astrologer and expert in dreams and dream interpretation.
1:28 He teaches classes in self investigation to a worldwide audience and is the host of the weekly podcast, Conscious embodiment Astrology and Dreams.
1:38 He is also the author of Lewin's Complete D Dictionary of Dreams.
1:43 Leon's Little Book of Dreams, dream sight and psychic dreamer.
1:47 So welcome Doctor Michael.
1:49 I'm so happy you're here.
1:50 It's so great to be here.
1:51 Thank you, Kris.
1:52 Yeah.
1:53 You know, like I said, I'm really excited this episode, but I always start my episodes the same way and that is by asking my guest what their origin story is.
2:03 So what led you on this path?
2:05 What?
2:06 Yeah, I know.
2:07 I think we're going to go way back with this one.
2:09 We are you, are you able to interpret dreams?
2:12 Yes.
2:12 It really does start in childhood and funnily enough.
2:15 I'm going to tell the actual, the whole story because it starts with the show album of the Broadway show Fiddler on the roof, but that's literally how I became a dream interpreter.
2:27 Well, there's a dream sequence in Fiddler on the roof.
2:30 It's a very vibrant musical theater piece of, of, of, of, of, of material.
2:34 It's like 7, 12 minute a stage thing and it's a dream.
2:38 He has a dream.
2:39 He tells his wife and he wakes up at the beginning of the thing on the album.
2:44 There's a little bit of dialogue where he's like,, he's waking up and she's like, what, what, what, and he goes, I have this terrible dream and she says to him on the album, tell me what you dreamed and I'll tell you what it meant.
2:58 So I heard that 1000 times as a kid because it was one of the two broadway shows that my mother had the album of in her collection.
3:05 So I heard that idea spoken of so many times that when my mother got her master's in social work and Freud's interpretation of dreams showed up on her bookshelf when I was 15, you could bet I read that book.
3:21 Now, I don't know what I got out of Freud at 15, but I certainly understood that dreams could be looked at.
3:28 He used the word analysis, they could be analyzed for meaning and that meaning would lead you to unconscious material that would be exposed by looking at the dreams.
3:37 And so I took these two sort of ideas into high school and you're standing around in the hallway and someone says, oh my God, I had the craziest dream last night, I remembered Golda and I remembered Freud and I would say, tell me what you dreamed and I'll tell you what it meant.
3:53 Now, I'm not sure what came out of my mouth at 1617 and 18 years old.
3:59 But I know now that I have a gift, I have a gift for hearing a story that a dream is told in the language of symbols.
4:09 I listen to the symbols and I tell myself the story about the story and I can do this very fast, right?
4:16 So I have an ability to hear the universality in the dream imagery and an ability to not project my own stuff onto your dream.
4:26 So like if you have a dream about your mother, I'm not going to be talking about my mother when I'm interpreting your dream.
4:32 And this has just happened such that in, as a teenager, kids responded, they got excited by the intuitive information that came out of my mouth.
4:41 So I simply followed that bread crumb all the way into my life.
4:46 And that led me here.
4:47 But it started as a teenager.
4:49 That's amazing.
4:50 And you know, if I was gonna say any musical would have brought you here.
4:54 The amazing, like I've been thinking about that play all week knowing that you're coming on the show.
5:02 Oh, that's so funny.
5:03 I love it.
5:03 Yeah.
5:04 Yeah.
5:04 No, that's a good one.
5:05 OK.
5:06 So is it, is, it, it sounds like it's about recognizing symbols within dream symbolism.
5:11 And from there you can kind of pull a story out.
5:14 Is that what I'm?
5:15 Yeah, absolutely.
5:15 That's a great way of articulating it.
5:18 The idea that symbols and dreams might have meaning connects to what that symbol or thing is or does, right?
5:26 So, like I'm holding a pen right.
5:27 There's a pen in front of me on my desk.
5:29 If I dream about a pen, then I'm definitely dreaming about what the pen does, what its use, what its essence is, right?
5:36 So it's about communicating my thoughts in a permanent way.
5:39 If I have a pencil on my desk, that's a different symbol.
5:42 Same thing it's used in essence is I write, I express, but pencil write is erasable.
5:48 Pen is not right there.
5:50 You have a meaning about the thing itself that would be different if your dream was about a pen or your dream was about a pencil.
5:58 And so everything that appears in the dream, every symbol, every animal, every image, every setting can have an universal interpretation and that interpretation, its universality is generated by what the thing is, what it does or what everybody would agree upon you.
6:16 You know, if millions and millions of people all think that Scarlett Johansson is a beautiful woman and a fabulous movie star.
6:23 She's gonna show up in people's dreams as a kind of Aphrodite image because we all agree about her sort of, you know, holding that energy.
6:31 So that's what's happening in dreams the stories are just symbols that have meaning.
6:36 So how did you learn all of these symbols or did you kind of come up with some of them on your own?
6:41 Like if someone dreams of a certain type of animal, for instance, you know, where, where did that come from?
6:46 Did you just kind of?
6:48 Yeah.
6:48 Yeah.
6:49 So here's, here's where I think it would come from in my sort of personal experience of say, listening to a dream that has like a hawk in it.
6:59 I know that hawks fly high that they hover, that they have this great vantage point by being able to, to glide above, you know, hot cliffs and ride banks of air and they have this great vantage point.
7:10 So I know that about hawks because I've watched a hawk or two, right?
7:14 So then if you look up like a animal totem, meaning those meanings are gonna be based on the quality, the behavior, the style, the timbre of that animal.
7:25 And so the fact that I can do what I do isn't a function that like, I know something that you don't know, it's that I can do it quickly.
7:35 Ok.
7:36 I could lead you from not thinking you don't know what something means to coming up with what's universal if I just guided your thoughts about, well, what does that thing do?
7:46 What's its use?
7:47 And you'd be like, oh, that makes so much sense.
7:49 Michael, the glass is really a symbol of my ability to draw life force towards me.
7:56 So, if the glass is broken, the dream is about my inability to self man, the care that I need.
8:03 Right.
8:03 So, the idea isn't that I know that and you don't, it's that what might take you three or four minutes to air quotes?
8:11 Figure out I'm processing at a quantum speed.
8:15 It's just Fastness, not knowledge.
8:18 Yeah.
8:18 It's like, it's like you can just read it quicker.
8:21 That's right.
8:22 It's like I don't speak any other language but let but English, well, I, I speak English in but I know a lot of people who are Multilingual and I will tell you that my experience of knowing this universal language reminds me of what people who I know who speak more than one language fluently experience that it's really an instantaneous ability to shift from one to the other.
8:48 And that's happening for me as I'm listening to a dream, it's faster than I can even perceive.
8:53 Very cool.
8:55 OK.
8:55 So I'm gonna ask you the hard question.
8:58 What do you think dreams are?
9:01 There are so many things?
9:04 Yeah.
9:05 So let's talk about a couple of things that we know that they are from a brain structure place.
9:10 We know that we are reviewing everything that happened during the day, during rem sleep dreaming.
9:16 That's why we so often dream about things that we experienced during the waking life day that preceded the night of sleep because the brain is in fact needing to review all of the data it collected during the day and saying, OK, this is important.
9:30 Let's make that a memory, this is unimportant.
9:32 Let's just shove that into the abyss of the unconscious.
9:34 So that's a function that's happening in dreams that we now know about scientifically, the scientists would tell you.
9:41 Therefore, dreams have no mystical meaning, but that's bullshit.
9:44 The science, right?
9:46 So we know we're forming memory in rem sleep while dreams are happening.
9:51 So in some ways, dreams are a function of the many chaotic visual re experiences of the day's material.
10:01 OK.
10:02 Another thing that's happening in the brain during rem sleep is that well cells poop, all cells poop, they they, they make metabolic waste, they take in fuel, they burn it and then they chip some stuff out in the body below the blood brain barrier.
10:19 We have a lymphatic system that just collects all this stuff and gets rid of it.
10:23 But the lymphatic system can't work above the blood brain barrier.
10:27 So the brain does something really cool.
10:30 All of the brain cells shrink a little bit and and all of what what happens during.
10:36 So the brain cells shrink and then cerebral spinal fluid fills the space in between.
10:41 And when they regain their shape, they push the mela metabolic way into the cerebral spinal fluid in between brain cells which then funnel down into the spinal column and go into the body and are taken away by the lymphatic system that I didn't know that crazy.
10:59 So that's happening in dreams in Rem.
11:03 So the rem cycle itself is like flushing the toilet in your brain.
11:09 So those are functional.
11:11 They're not mystical, they're not psychological.
11:14 So the idea that we get from Freud and then Jung and the world of psychology is that dreams are taking us into the unconscious and in the unconscious is where all of the demons are.
11:27 That's where we're fearful.
11:29 That's where we're enraged.
11:30 That's where we're terrified of death.
11:32 That's where all of our darker human qualities exist and live and are vibrant.
11:38 Our conscious awareness is like I'm good.
11:41 All is well, I'm living life, right?
11:43 So what we do when we go into dreams is we visit the places in our psyche where we're terrified where we're saying no to life, where we're enraged with things where we're in deep grief.
11:56 And then we wake up the next morning more capable of meeting life on life's terms on a Tuesday because we process the stress of Monday in our dream state.
12:08 So on a certain level, just like we're clearing out metabolic waste, I think we're also clearing out psychic waste by letting our darker feelings be visited by our awareness.
12:21 Sometimes I think our darker feelings are like eight year old Children at the pool, right?
12:27 Diving in going, look ma watch me like they just want to be noticed or seen or be or dealt with.
12:37 So we go into our dream state and we breathe some love and light into our unconscious shadow material so that we can wake up and have it, not grab us and run us and push us into, you know, behaviors that, that are being driven by unconscious material.
12:53 So I think we get wiser but such an amazing safety mechanism of our bodies, right?
12:59 So it's like I'm going to help you process some of these while you're on.
13:03 So you don't have to deal with it.
13:05 Yeah, I mean, that's actually really incredible that our bodies can do, you know Kris in, in my 30 whatever years of doing this.
13:13 I don't think I've ever heard anybody articulate what you just articulated.
13:16 Like that's actually a brilliant idea that there's actually a sort of and you know, me, you know, a thing happening there that protects us by letting us act out those things.
13:30 Freud, certainly thought that on some level.
13:32 Yeah.
13:33 Ok.
13:33 So I have to ask.
13:34 So I've, I've had certain dreams of my father passed away this year and my dog passed away this year and I've had some dreams that I swear are visitations and I'm curious what your thoughts on these are.
13:47 Well, first of all, well, hold on, hold on.
13:49 So it kind of crosses the line into like lucid dreaming.
13:51 So like, I, I'll give you an example of one with my dad, we were, we were in Hawaii together at this hotel we've stayed at several times and we were just kind of sitting there and talking and I was just kind of like enjoying being in his presence and like all of a sudden it snapped into my mind that he had died and, and I just said to him, you know, I miss you so much and he was like, I, you do.
14:14 And he gave me a big hug and he's like, but I'll be dropping in from time to time and, and I've had several dreams like that with my dog too where it's like, I've had this moment of clarity where it's like, I know they've gone and I've had this interaction.
14:26 So I'm curious what your take on those kind of dreams are, are they visitations?
14:29 Absolutely.
14:30 And how you know that a visitation is a visitation is the simplicity of the experience.
14:39 Dreams are chaotic in nature at best.
14:41 Right.
14:41 Right.
14:41 There we flip around from scenario to scenario and then possibly, you know, wildly shifting landscapes.
14:48 Visitation, dreams take place in one singular or simple setting.
14:54 So like your dream in the hotel in the resort is like it wasn't like you were then in a clown car and then up the hill and then, you know, we you were in the one place and then there's always a simple conveyance of whatever wants to be set, right?
15:10 And in this case, his message was I'm here and I will drop in from time to time.
15:15 That's classic visitation conveyance.
15:19 Often it's not verbal and it's just felt as all is.
15:22 Well, I love you or something, some felt experience.
15:26 But even with you and your dad in that dream, which had like more words than might be typical in a visitation dream.
15:32 It was the kind of things that get expressed in a visit, a very simple sense of message.
15:41 And that's how, you know, it's a visitation dream and they feel different.
15:46 Didn't that feel different than other?
15:49 I was like, no, that was my dad visiting me.
15:51 I mean, thank you for validating that I appreciate that.
15:57 You know, it's, it's like, I wish I could ask you like, how did that happen?
16:00 What's the science behind that?
16:01 But of course, that's something we probably won't know until well and, and the scientists would say that doesn't exist that it's not possible and the mystics know the truth of it, right?
16:12 And, and, and if, if there's anything to be said about like, well, how does that happen?
16:18 The simplest thing that we know in the mystical realm, forget about the scientific realm.
16:22 The part of our perception that gets us through the world is our thinking mind.
16:28 It's like the narrator in, in astrology, it's mercury, which is not the sun, which is the center of our awareness, right?
16:34 So our thinking and our perception is not our centered awareness, right?
16:41 Our centered awareness knows who we are.
16:43 And our thinking is just commenting on that all of the time.
16:46 But that thinking mind interferes with subtle perceptions.
16:51 That is why we call it the still small voice of intuition because it's not loud, what's loud, the narrating mind that's talking to us always about who and what and when we are, that mind goes to sleep, when we go to sleep, that mind is the limiting perceiver in us.
17:09 It's necessary to have that mind.
17:12 We can't navigate this realm without it.
17:14 And it limits us, it tells us we're solid when we're not, it tells us we're separate when we're not.
17:20 But it also gets us across the street looking both ways.
17:23 So we don't get hit by a car.
17:24 Yeah, it's the ego, right?
17:26 And you can't function without it, but it isn't allowing perceptions that are multidimensional.
17:34 But the minute we go to sleep, so does that limiting rational mind?
17:38 And then we're avail for perceiving things.
17:42 The idea that sleep is like some deep unconscious state like like Propofol like we would just be out is that's a myth.
17:49 We're not out, we're just asleep, but we're fully present and available just in a different state.
17:55 So we are more conscious than we know that we are because we feel unconscious because we're asleep, but we're there, we're present, we're vibrant, we're in aliveness and the rational mind isn't there keeping us separate and limited.
18:11 Isn't it crazy?
18:12 That, for what is it, like a third of our lives, we just go off into these astral realms or whatever we do and reboot and recharge and all animals do it.
18:23 It's, it's just crazy.
18:24 Which is crazy.
18:25 Right.
18:26 Well, and I get that you are somebody like me who wants to appreciate both sides of things, the mystical and the scientific and, and,, you know, science just, you know, is way behind the mysticism.
18:40 Yeah, totally, totally.
18:42 But it's also a really cool time to be alive when there is things like quantum physics and, you know, neuroscience and epigenetics that are, that are starting to validate things that these mystics have been saying for eons, right?
18:54 It's, it's really cool.
18:56 OK.
18:57 So here's another one for you.
18:59 I've heard that some dreams.
19:01 Are you looking into an alternative timeline that another version of you is living?
19:06 So what are your thoughts on that?
19:08 You know, I'll say yes, absolutely.
19:12 On the one hand, and on the other hand, I just want to say this, this idea of timelines is very popular these days, this idea that we are switching timeliness and I'm not, maybe it's that I'm old.
19:24 I don't entirely understand like what that means from like, how do I use that information?
19:32 How do I use the idea that we have shifting timeline?
19:35 So I wanna start with just a little bit of a like we're not ignorance.
19:41 Exactly.
19:41 But it kind of like, well, I don't really know what that is, but I do have a belief that in dreams that there is the potential to visit other consciousnesses, other worlds, other domains.
19:57 So I believe that unequivocally.
19:59 So if you say to me this idea of visiting another timeline where you're playing out some other thing, well, that's not my world.
20:07 I mean, like you don't say that I go, yes, yes.
20:09 I, I know what that means.
20:10 Like I'm like, well, what is that?
20:11 I'm, I'm a 60 year old, you know, part.
20:16 But I do believe in the idea that we drop into other, you fill in the blank so that whatever that means for you, that if I have a dream in a world where I am and I'm in a group setting and it seems like a world that seems to work and, and have agency in and of itself, even though it's not my life, I actually dream about this a lot.
20:38 Like I dream that I'm in community a lot that, that aren't my communities.
20:43 Why not have the notion be that those places that I visit exist?
20:50 I have often believed that we go to crazy places in dreams that I think might exist on other planets and other places in the universe.
21:00 that every, like I've had this mystical thought, like, what if every dream is taking us to some place that has some agency and existence somewhere, I believe that's possible.
21:11 Yeah.
21:11 And it's, it's so I did too.
21:13 Thank you for your response.
21:15 And I think it's so fascinating because I think dreams do all of these things that we've talked about, right?
21:20 They, they help you.
21:22 Like there's definitely those dreams where you're like, ok, I was just reliving and processing the day or like, oh, that was definitely my father visiting me or?
21:30 Wow, that was like you said, like I was with people doing things that felt very realistic in and it was not on earth, it was not in his lifetime.
21:40 So it's, it's so interesting that they can have all of these different functions.
21:45 You know, the idea that that our brains while we are awake are processing data and filling in a lot of blank space.
21:55 We know from a scientific perspective that what we are perceiving is one tiny sliver of what we're actually in energetically in terms of light and frequency and vibration.
22:08 And I'm talking to physics here, I'm not talking to woo woo, right.
22:11 That we can't perceive it all.
22:13 And so there's got to be something about that quietude of the perceiving mind being asleep that in fact does open us up multi dimensionally that I'd, I'd sign up for that as true.
22:26 Totally.
22:27 Yeah, I think what's the number?
22:28 It's like you, you can only see 0.0035% of the visible light spectrum.
22:33 So what if it's 99% of your That's right.
22:36 So think of it at the same.
22:38 Well, you know, this is another way that astrology helps me contextualize something like this where the sun is burning brightly saying I'm all that in a bag of chips.
22:46 Meanwhile, the moon who represents the unconscious is saying my domain is as big as all of outer space dude, like I'm, I'm tapping into places where your life becomes a dot That's us.
22:58 Our conscious awareness feels like everything.
23:01 But the much vas part of our existence is unknowable and unconscious.
23:08 And the dream state is where we are more connected to all that unknowable than certainly than the waking state.
23:16 Yeah.
23:17 Yeah.
23:17 I, I feel like I've heard it said that when you're dreaming is when you're actually awake and then this life, the dream.
23:24 But I, I, I love that.
23:27 It's a beautiful idea.
23:30 Yeah, that I think fits something that I have often felt in my own mystical pursuits where I do feel more alive and whole and embodied when I'm in a pursuit in that direction than I ever do elsewhere.
23:47 Unfortunately, my work, I get to do that like in my work is I'm like holding space, I'm channeling wisdom.
23:53 I it, it becomes an experience where, you know, I get to be more in my divine nature than my human nature.
24:01 But those experiences I have always felt more real to me than the mundane three dimensional world.
24:09 Absolutely.
24:10 Yeah.
24:11 Absolutely.
24:13 Ok.
24:13 So, I am pregnant right now.
24:17 Fabulous.
24:19 Congratulate you in like a week.
24:19 You're like my last interview for a while.
24:21 , but talk about vivid dreams, like, like what's, what's, what is that about?
24:29 Because my dreams are like movies.
24:31 They have like a beginning, a middle and end a whole plot.
24:34 Like it's, it's chemicals.
24:36 You are, you are filled with enormous amounts of hormone and neurotransmitter and all kinds of chemicals that enrich every experience that you have.
24:47 Like, isn't it accurate that your emotional life is more vibrant and, and, and up and down when you're pregnant?
24:54 Oh, yeah, I've already tried once today.
24:56 Right.
24:57 Ok.
24:57 So right there like that idea is the same idea as the dream intensification.
25:04 You're crying more readily because you're filled with hormones that shift your emotions.
25:09 You know, chemicals in the brain are emotions, neurotransmitter creates experience of sensation that we call feelings.
25:17 So, if you are filled with an enormous amount of, you know, what is ultimately natural is not the right word, but a typical amount of chemicals in your system, it's gonna make you overly emotional as you just said.
25:31 And that same sort of overly something something experience is making your dreams more vivid.
25:39 All right.
25:39 So there's that, that's like a good scientific explanation.
25:42 I appreciate that.
25:43 And I've heard everything is, everything is over the top.
25:47 I've even, you know,, do you sleep with your baby daddy?
25:52 I do.
25:53 Does he his dreams ever getting more intense as he's, that was actually gonna be one of my next questions is he never remembers his dreams.
26:02 Like, what about people that never remember their dreams?
26:05 Well, you know, there's we all dream, right?
26:09 If you weren't dreaming, you'd be dead like that.
26:11 That we know the dreaming is a function of, you know, keeping the brain going.
26:16 We sleep for our brains, not for our bodies.
26:18 The body is a machine that can go forever.
26:20 The body does not read rest.
26:22 In fact, when we feel tired, it's not the body saying I'm tired, the brain is the tired one.
26:28 An interesting thought that makes sense though.
26:31 There are studies that verified this, there, there's, there's studies that show that there's been ways that I think military studies did some things where they were able to put the sleep mechanism off, like turn the sleeping off without speeding someone up, not with amphetamine, but with some, and they found that they could go and go and go and go and go.
26:48 But their capacity to perceive and use their mind was, you know, in the toilet, but the body was ready to go and go on the second day, third day, fourth day.
26:59 So when, when we are in that dream state, this is one way to sort of like appreciate it.
27:09 Dreams are very visual.
27:11 And so we will often think have you ever woken up in the middle of the night and thought, oh, I'll never forget this dream.
27:17 And then of course, you can't remember it the next day.
27:19 Yeah.
27:20 Well, because we are visual people in waking life and the, the the cortex in the brain that perceives what the eyes are perceiving is not operating.
27:31 When we're sleeping, our eyes are closed and we are asleep, we're perceiving a visual sensation with other parts of the brain.
27:40 So when we wake up and certainly when we open our eyes, we shut all of that amorphous, subtle underbelly experience of dream perception just goes away.
27:52 So for many people, there's never been a long window that stays open between the dream perception and the waking life perception.
28:02 So you can think of that as just something that's part of somebody's makeup.
28:06 Some people are wired in such a way that it's a little bit more fluid and some people are wired in such a way that it's like a hard stop sleeping waking.
28:16 I don't remember anything.
28:18 Anybody can increase the amount of dreams they remember with a couple of little steps.
28:25 One is you gotta have the intention, intention is everything.
28:28 There's a lot of power in the brain when we say we do want something and the brain will start making stuff happen.
28:34 So we gotta have the intention or what that might look like is creating your bedtime routine is a little more sacred than random being a little bit more serious about it and then asking either in a written form in your dream journal or a prayerful form, you know, to your like, hey, hi yourself.
28:50 Let's have some dreams tonight.
28:51 I wanna remember my dreams in the morning.
28:54 King has to be there.
28:55 Second thing is you gotta have the recording device nearby, right?
28:59 You wanna circumnavigate that idea of, I'll remember this dream or getting up, you know, you wanna be able to reach for your dream journal or your recording device.
29:08 But the third piece that is maybe not something that people would typically think of that I think is incredibly important is you wanna go to that dream journal and write something even if you haven't remembered something.
29:22 Hm.
29:22 Might, you might write it like I don't remember anything from last night and then wait a moment and then move on this third act of engaging the body in behavior that's designed to connect you to a dream memory can in fact increase your brain's ability to keep that window open a little bit longer.
29:43 And I've heard this reported back to me as working for people that particular added act.
29:49 I love those tips.
29:50 It's kind of like starting to work the muscle a little bit.
29:52 That's right.
29:53 And it is a muscle.
29:54 That's a perfect way of describing it.
29:55 I think it's a muscle and some people have it organically so they don't ever think about, oh, I gotta work on remembering my dreams and other people aren't and that's just a wiring thing.
30:06 It's just a style of, of human being, a human.
30:11 Yeah.
30:12 You know, the whole, the whole thing about setting the intention and everything made me think of lucid dreaming.
30:17 So I'd love to hear your thoughts on lucid dreaming, which is another fascinating thing.
30:21 You keep saying waking life and I keep thinking about that movie about lucid dreaming, which is fantastic.
30:27 I don't.
30:27 Have you seen that?
30:28 I haven't, do I need to find it?
30:30 Waking life.
30:31 Yeah.
30:31 So it's, it's animated.
30:33 Oh, it's a really cool film.
30:34 It's animated in all different styles of animation and it's the first half of it gets like super deep and philosophical, but it's all about lucid dreaming.
30:44 I just wrote it down.
30:45 It's, yeah, it's pretty old at this point.
30:47 It's probably like 2030 years old.
30:49 But it's, it's, I will check it out and it goes like deep and, but anyway, so that whole thing is like about lucid dreaming.
30:57 Yeah, talk to me about lucid dreaming.
30:58 I know some people like teach themselves how to do it.
31:01 It's very popular to study it to figure out how to do it more.
31:08 Which is interesting.
31:08 I will, I want to start by saying I have never been drawn to increase my lucid dreaming.
31:14 So I've never done some of the things that I'm gonna talk to you about, but I, you know, this has been my world for decades.
31:19 So I know about this world, I've just not I have not chosen to increase the experience that I've had and I've had one or two experiences that blew my mind.
31:30 So let me start.
31:31 Yeah.
31:31 No, I absolutely will.
31:32 Let me start by just talking about like what is a lucid dream?
31:34 So at the lowest level, lucid dreaming is just becoming aware that you're dreaming while you're dreaming.
31:40 This is very common.
31:41 It's not very exciting or sexy.
31:43 It's just you're dreaming and you're in the clown car and you're going up the hill and it's going backwards and you go huh I think I'm dreaming.
31:50 That's a lucid dream.
31:52 No more than that.
31:54 Simple, simple.
31:55 That's a lucid dream.
31:57 So there are layers or levels of deeper ways of lucid dreaming.
32:04 I've had this dream and I've heard people talk about a kind of lucid dream where you're fully aware that you're dreaming.
32:09 Now.
32:09 It's not like an idea that slips in, but that a person can be like, oh I'm in a dream landscape and there's movement happening and a person might be able to guide the movement like, oh turn, right, turn left.
32:21 I've had this experience a couple of times and I've heard it reported that it's a different kind of dream experience.
32:27 It doesn't, it's, it isn't always a storyline that's being told.
32:32 It's about the movement or the sensation of movement.
32:35 And the idea that I'm dreaming, I'm not sure where I am, but I can move and I can like guide myself to move.
32:41 Right.
32:41 I can guide myself to move left.
32:42 And I've heard that as a kind of lucid dreaming, I'm gonna jump up to the high level of lucid dreaming now because I want to talk about an experience that I've had twice.
32:54 I once had a dream where I was sitting on my couch and I was as awake as I am right now.
33:05 I mean, I, I have to say I have to repeat myself just so that I can, I was awake as I am right now.
33:13 And I'm sitting in my living room in my little apartment.
33:16 I lived in Silver Lake California at the time in Los Angeles and I'm like holy Mother of God.
33:22 I am dreaming.
33:23 I'm asleep.
33:25 I'm asleep right in that room.
33:26 I pointed to the bedroom.
33:28 I am, I am having a lucid dream.
33:31 I it was extraordinary.
33:34 And then I woke up and or at some point I woke up, right?
33:38 But I can't even convey to you the power of that feeling of being wide awake, knowing that I was asleep and dreaming right there alone was a mystical moment of wow, we're kind of like God.
33:58 Like this is like we are so powerfully creative.
34:02 Like that experience was as powerful as a, as a, you know, plant medicine diet that, that I've done.
34:08 So now I know why people chase it.
34:10 It's like, oh my God.
34:11 I, that's an experience worth chasing.
34:13 I had a second dream that was similar.
34:16 Not quite as sharp and vivid.
34:18 Everything had a sepia tone, like everything looked a little brownish, but I was still alert awake in my embodiment.
34:27 I was at a park and I was walking up to a picnic table where there were like five guys sitting around a picnic table again as awake as I am now.
34:35 But in a kind of like a filter on the light.
34:39 And I walked up to the guys at the table and I just said, you guys know that we're all like dreaming, right?
34:44 And they were like, yeah, come on in, sit down like they were aware of it too.
34:48 That's they were aware of.
34:50 I'm telling you that there ain't nothing.
34:52 If this were the inquisition, I'd be like set me on fire because I'm telling you, I believe that I was in a space in multidimensional territory where five other men were also having an experience of lucid dreaming and they existed somewhere on planet Earth in bodies and that the dream that b so those experiences were outrageous to me.
35:14 So I can understand why people might chase the idea of a lucid dream.
35:19 So how this works if you were like go buy a book or take a class or a workshop on this, the technique that I've heard used the most taps directly into something I've already talked to you about, which is the processing of daily material to turn some of it into memory and get rid of the rest of it where we review everything that's happened during the day, every time we go to sleep, right?
35:46 So that's a happening thing.
35:48 The lucid dream aficionado is being told, look at your hands during the day, just hold your hands up in front of your face and look at them, just take them in and then you know, move on, do that all day long.
36:05 And eventually you're gonna see your hands in your dream and you're gonna know that you're lucid dreaming and that's gonna open you up to what's possible if you keep chasing the idea of lucid dreaming.
36:17 Well, that makes total sense to me because you are in fact, reviewing everything from your waking life during your dream state.
36:26 And so if you put an image during your waking life constantly in front of your eyes, eventually, you are gonna come upon that image while you're forming the short term memory and then it's gonna trigger something that happens within the dream state that allows you to know you're lucid dreaming and a little bit of your consciousness will wake up.
36:44 The idea of that is if you keep practicing it and follow that breadcrumb trail, you might get to places where your dreams are richer in the lucid kind of way that I have no experience of.
36:57 So I can't speak into it.
36:59 Like I've just given you all my wisdom about lucid dreaming and we've hit the edges.
37:03 I have no more.
37:04 I can, you know, teach about that.
37:05 But it makes sense to me that there be a technique that taps right into something that the brain is doing.
37:12 But that reminds the dreamer that they're having a lucid experience and that if that gets woken up, who knows what's possible down the line, it's just like meditating.
37:20 It's a skill.
37:20 It's a muscle.
37:21 You keep practicing it, you get better at it.
37:24 Yeah.
37:24 That totally makes sense.
37:25 And that the idea of having a trigger like that, something so simple that you're gonna see that.
37:30 I, I totally think and thank you for going down that path.
37:34 I've also heard crazy things where people are like, oh, I'm gonna try flying, you know, but I, I knew a guy who took a class and the idea was they used intention setting where the idea was, pick a person who's a lot who's real but dead and interview them.
37:50 And he spent weeks just creating an intention.
37:52 I'm gonna interview Marilyn Monroe.
37:54 I'm gonna interview Marilyn Monroe.
37:55 I'm gonna interview Marilyn Monroe and one night he had a dream where he was in a kind of blank open space.
38:00 He was sitting in a chair, there's a chair in front of them and up walks Marilyn Monroe and she says, hi, I'm here for my interview.
38:07 I'm here for my interview that you've been asking for.
38:09 That's right.
38:09 So now was that the spirit of Marilyn Monroe?
38:13 I don't know.
38:14 And it doesn't matter what matters to me is that somebody took a desire and an intention, put energy into it and had a mystical experience.
38:26 That's a muscle worth building.
38:30 Yeah.
38:30 And, you know, I teach so much in my own work about manifesting, using the law of attraction.
38:35 And it's, it's really, I'm teaching similar things just during this waking 3d life that you're teaching or whoever is teaching during sleep.
38:43 So dreams are actually like if you're interested in manifesting your reality and you're engaged in the idea of like creating the seed of the idea with your mind, filling your feeling body with the sense that you already have it and, and pushing forward into the future as a, you know, using that as a manifestation tool.
39:06 You're like pumping your conscious awareness with your Yes.
39:11 Yes, I want this.
39:12 Yes, I'm getting this.
39:13 Yes, I'm working for this.
39:14 Yes.
39:14 Yes.
39:15 Yes.
39:15 Yes.
39:15 Yes.
39:16 Well, guess where the nose are da you're unconscious.
39:20 Yeah.
39:21 And where do we go with our dreams into the unconscious?
39:26 So I think that one of the most powerful things you can do to add on to your manifestation desires is to pay attention to your dreams.
39:36 And if there's something specific you're working on to manifest a project, an idea, a soulmate, whatever I would take this on like a, you know, like, like, like, like my life depended on it.
39:47 Where you just ask your dreams to show you the resistance, the fear, the squeeze where under the surface of your unconscious you might be saying no, because all of us are saying yes and no.
40:00 And if we don't appreciate the nos, the yeses won't matter much.
40:04 And the dream materials that come can trigger your psyche into just like we talked about earlier, process, the fear.
40:12 So that that's honored and acknowledged and then the mechanism of your embodiment can go further towards that goal because you're also acknowledging the part of you that doesn't believe I love that advice.
40:27 I think that's so beautiful and you know, it's such a yeah, we all have the potential to tap into our unconscious, but we don't realize it, right?
40:37 We don't realize that power.
40:39 So that's, I love that advice.
40:40 I just have to say, I love your story about your second dream with all those men.
40:45 But I, and I believe what you said that they're probably living lives on earth and everyone is having this lucid dream like I want you to all meet one day.
40:53 And did you have a dream in 2017?
40:57 Yeah, I've heard some myth and I don't know if I believe it that you can only dream of faces you've seen before.
41:05 But I, I don't know, I don't, I don't think, I believe that.
41:07 But what do you think?
41:08 That's interesting.
41:09 I, I have heard that before too.
41:11 , not in any way that, that it, like, look, if you hadn't said that, I'd probably forget that they say that.
41:16 But I, I do, I have heard that before.
41:19 You know, all I can say in response to that is, is that we know that we are wired to see faces everywhere like we must, our survival depends on that.
41:32 We recognize friend or foe through face.
41:36 Yeah.
41:37 So in fact, we're, we're very or we're very wired to other people, which is partly why the world is falling apart because that the need to other is like built into us.
41:47 So because we have this orientation towards faces like we will see faces in rocks and and napkins and stains and right, you know, it's like you could think that's maybe the shroud of Turin, but it might also just be that your brain will form a face in its way that it fills in spots, you know, like the brain will fill in spaces that aren't there in that tiny band of perception thing.
42:12 So I mean, I don't know if this is going anywhere in the direction of answering your question.
42:18 But I, I have to believe that our relationship to faces is deep and universal and not like that just seems like a limit that I can't dream of a face unless I've seen it.
42:30 But then again, I've seen a millions of faces.
42:33 So who knows?
42:34 You know, even then saying that it's like, is it true?
42:37 Is it not true?
42:38 The third question I would ask is knowing this, would this be valuable?
42:42 Like, would there be value in knowing if this is true or not be like, yeah, not really.
42:46 So maybe I don't care.
42:48 That's fair.
42:49 Yeah, I'm gonna choose that.
42:51 It's not true because I like the idea that we can tap into other timelines or dimensions or world.
42:56 Yeah.
42:56 II I, I am certainly way more on your side of that equation of, of if it's, if, if I'm gonna cho if I'm gonna decide it's gonna be in that direction.
43:07 OK.
43:07 So you work with a lot of people they, they come tell you their dreams.
43:11 Have you ever had someone whose dreams came true?
43:16 Premonition?
43:17 Yeah.
43:18 Yeah, absolutely.
43:19 Although I, you know, it's funny, the only story I have to tell about that in terms of like actually working with somebody was there was a woman that I worked with.
43:26 This is about 20 years ago and she did have regular precognitive dreams.
43:31 And so she called me one day very upset because she had a very vivid precognitive dream of driving over the Sepulveda Pass in the rain and had a very bad car accident.
43:41 Sepulveda Pass is a street in Los Angeles.
43:45 And,, I sort of sat with this a little bit.
43:48 It was like I could feel her agitation and, and,, and I knew her to be a pretty cognitive chamber and at the end of the day we was just like, well, for the next year when it rains, don't take soda.
44:06 You know, I, and I think I remember my first precognitive dream because I had one in high school.
44:10 It was the most innocuous thing ever.
44:12 It was just I had a dream of a bunch of people sitting in circle on the floor.
44:17 It's like circling up, sitting Indian style.
44:19 And then like the next week, we had to have a talk about something that was taking place in a high school class.
44:25 I was in and, and it was actually a dance class, right?
44:27 So it wasn't, there weren't chairs.
44:28 That's why we sat on the circle, we sat on the floor in a circle.
44:32 So like I had this dream that I was sitting in a circle, cross legged with a bunch of people.
44:36 And then a week later, I was sitting in a circle, cross legged with people in waking life.
44:40 So that's like my big first precognitive dream.
44:42 And it's like, that's not very sexy and exciting, but I'm also not a standard precognitive dreamer.
44:48 I think we all have them.
44:49 I think it happens because I think again time is an illusion and it's, you know we perceive time linearly but that's not how it exists and it is the thinking mind that's doing the perception of time.
45:03 Yeah.
45:03 No, I I couldn't agree more about time being an illusion.
45:06 You made me, that made me think of Deja Vu, right?
45:09 Like I, I wonder if Deja Vu is just, oh, I've, I've experienced this in a dream before and I just don't remember it.
45:16 I think Deja Vu is a rip and tear in the fabric of space time.
45:20 Such that we, we have an experience that we have no language for that is multidimensional, but we have a sensation when we're having that experience and the sensation is experience this before.
45:37 And so I, I think that what that is is that we're always experiencing everything everywhere all at once.
45:45 But we don't perceive that because how could we function if we did?
45:49 So we have this perceiving mind that blocks all of that out and that goes away in dreams because the blocker goes to sleep.
45:59 But by the same token, that same thinking mind that keeps us three dimensionally present and unaware of all of the other energies that are, there takes a little break for a second, it goes out and has a cigarette for a moment and then it's like, whoa, I'm having an experience and it feels like I've been here before and it's that, that's what I think is going on in Deja Vu that it's just we get a glimpse behind the curtain where every moment of our life is something we have air quotes experience before.
46:30 I love that definition so much.
46:32 And it, it, it brings me back to timelines because, you know, the whole thing of time being an illusion, it's so hard to wrap your head around.
46:42 But they say that, you know, past lives are actually parallel lives, right?
46:45 Like because everything happens in the now But like everything and it's so hard to comprehend from where we are on 3d earth.
46:53 Yeah, because we, we have to respect time and everything that's mystical phenomenal like you're just describing operates outside of time.
47:03 Yeah.
47:05 I love talking about this kind of stuff.
47:07 I i it, it blows my mind that people don't talk about this kind of stuff.
47:11 I'm like, how can people just be so caught up in 3d world and reality TV?
47:16 And their jobs so much more?
47:18 There's so much more exciting.
47:19 Listen, I have that experience sometimes too where it's like, wait, you're not thinking about this stuff 24 7.
47:24 And I am.
47:26 Yeah.
47:27 So is there anything about dreams that we didn't touch on today that you think is important to get across?
47:34 And the answer could be no too.
47:36 That's OK.
47:39 Yeah.
47:39 I'm just gonna say that like in the moment I'm feeling complete.
47:45 Thank you so much.
47:46 You're so welcome.
47:48 Yeah.
47:48 For all the things, for a great conversation for this advice for coming on the show, taking the time.
47:53 Please let listeners know how they can work with you, where they can find you if you have offers your book, all the things.
48:00 Absolutely, Michael lennox.com is really just that, that's where to go.
48:04 Like I, I have a large social media presence on Instagram and tiktok.
48:07 I do daily astrology videos.
48:09 So there's a lot I offer for free.
48:11 But Michael lennox.com is really where to find it.
48:14 And so all of these podcasts and guest things that I've been doing these few months is in service of psychic dreamer, which came out on January 8th.
48:20 So that's at the website too.
48:22 So certainly, if you're interested in mystical dream topics, your audience can sort of get that book and, and you can find out all about all the classes that I teach there and all the ways to tap into my podcast and other things, Michael lennox.com.
48:35 Awesome.
48:36 And if you're driving or somewhere, you can't write that down, it's gonna be in the show notes and listeners.
48:41 Thank you so much for tuning in.
48:43 If this resonated with you, please like, comment, share, subscribe, send it to someone you think would think it's fascinating.
48:50 I don't know anyone who wouldn't find this conversation fascinating.
48:53 So let's help.
48:54 Spread the good word.
48:56 Thank you all so much.
48:57 Thank you Dr Michael and have a beautiful rest of your day.
49:00 Everyone.
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