0:00 Hi, everyone.
0:01 Welcome back to the Change Your Mind podcast, where we explore personal development, spirituality and science.
0:06 I'm your host,
0:08 I'm really excited for my guest today.
0:10 We are going to really dive into the science aspect of it.
0:12 I have Dr.
0:13 Greg Hammer with me, but really quick before I introduce him, a couple of quick announcements.
0:18 If you head over to the link in the show notes, you'll find a link from my book, Change Your Mind to Change Your Reality.
0:23 It was endorsed by 3 experts from the film The Secret, Marc Shimoff, Bob Doyle, Michael Beckwith.
0:28 It was also endorsed by John Gray, who wrote Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus, a lot of others in the personal development spiritual space.
0:36 You'll also find links to my courses, free workshops, free downloads, and of course, all of my guest links as well.
0:43 So be sure to check it out.
0:45 And as always, this podcast is part of the Los Angeles Tribune podcast network, doing a lot of really great stuff in the personal development sphere.
0:52 So check us out, check out all my partner podcasts as well.
0:57 Hi, I'm Chris.
0:58 When I was younger, I went through trauma that caused me to feel broken and lost.
1:03 But my life changed after I had a spiritual awakening.
1:07 Since then, I've dedicated my life to studying and learning from masters all around the world that have helped me to create a life of fulfillment and abundance beyond my wildest dreams.
1:16 Now I'm dedicated to sharing everything I've learned so that you don't have to suffer for decades like I did.
1:22 I've seen people's lives completely transformed, and I share it all right here.
1:29 All right, so I'm so excited for today's guest.
1:33 I have Dr.
1:33 Greg Hammer with me.
1:35 So Dr.
1:36 Greg Hammer is a professor at Stanford University School of Medicine, pediatric intensive care physician, pediatric anesthesiologist, mindfulness expert and author of Gain Without Pain, The Happiness Handbook for Healthcare Professionals.
1:51 A member of the Stanford Well MD Initiative, Dr.
1:55 Hammer is the former chair of the physician Wellness Task Force for the California Society of Anesthesiologists.
2:01 It's a lot of big words in your bio, Dr.
2:03 Hammer.
2:03 , he has been a visiting professor and lecturer on wellness at institutions worldwide and teaches gain to medical students, residents, and fellows at Stanford.
2:13 , Doctor Hammer is a health enthusiast and mediator utilizing a non-duality and mindfulness-based approach, including the gain method.
2:21 Welcome, Dr.
2:21 Hammer, I'm so happy you're here.
2:23 Thank you, Kris.
2:24 Great to be with you.
2:25 , disclaimer, I retired from Stanford at the end of the year.
2:30 So,, you know, I, all those things are now in the past tense.
2:35 The WellMD initiative, etc.
2:37 etc.
2:37 but,, you know, I'm still quite active in a number of areas as you and I were discussing before we went on the program.
2:45 You know, as I was reading that, I was thinking you just told me you were tired, but that's the bio I was sent, so I just, I rolled with it.
2:52 So thanks for the correction.
2:54 And I might have to ask you a few pediatric questions because I didn't tell you this.
2:59 I have an 11 week old baby, I just had a baby.
3:02 So that's a whole new world for me.
3:05 , but, you know, I like to start off all my conversations the same way.
3:09 And that is by asking my guests what their origin story is.
3:12 So, you know, you don't have to tell us necessarily all your med school background, but what led you to write this, make up this gain method that you do.
3:26 That's a good question.
3:27 , I have been really interested in spirituality, the usual sort of burning questions there,, for ever since I can remember.
3:38 , I was kind of a hippie when I was a teenager.
3:41 I stopped eating meat when I was 18.
3:44 I started doing some exploration with psychedelics.
3:46 This is now 50 years ago, mind you.
3:48 , and anyway, that's always been kind of my main area of interest is, is really the spirituality component of our existence and so, in 2011, just referable to why I wrote the book,, the, the Stanford WellMD initiative formed, and that was really to address the growing problem of burnout among physicians.
4:14 And,, you know, it's very disruptive when a physician leaves, especially at a place like Stanford, costs about a million dollars to replace them.
4:22 , combination of, you know, disruption in their clinical practice.
4:28 , recruiting new people, when you recruit people since you live in the Bay Area as well.
4:33 , to,, the peninsula, for example, San Francisco, the peninsula, even the East Bay, it's extremely expensive to live here, so you have to come up with quite a recruitment package.
4:44 So turnover among physicians at Stanford is, is a huge problem.
4:49 And so this group convened in order to address what were the drivers of burnout and also what are some of the remedies.
4:55 And so I really started focusing on personal resilience as one of the domains in which the remedies reside, if you will.
5:04 And Based on the way I learned, you know, according to the KISS principle, I try to keep things as simple as possible.
5:12 , I've given, you know, countless lectures, and I always really try to get across 3 or 4 points.
5:19 , if you try to put too much in a lecture, then people walk away and they don't really remember anything.
5:24 So I tried to distill down what I thought were the 4.
5:29 Really fundamental pillars of mental and spiritual well-being.
5:35 And I came up with gratitude, acceptance, intention, and non-judgment.
5:41 And I thought, well, yeah, if I can come up with an acronym even better.
5:46 So there you have the four pillars, they make a nice acronym which is GAin.
5:51 They're very interwoven, you know, happy to talk about that in more detail, but I really think that when you talk about burnout and mental and spiritual well-being, you're really getting down to these four elements in one form or another.
6:05 So, you know, that was what I came up with that was a message I could convey, a practice for myself and that which I teach, and also I think a good basis for writing a book and so.
6:18 I did.
6:19 So that's sort of a little bit of the origin story of the book and you and I were talking about our background, we kind of similar in a way.
6:26 We're both from the Chicago area, we both ended up out here, we both seem to love it here.
6:31 But you know,, like you, I have a, a, a very significant interest in wellness, in,, in my case, longevity science, health span science, and that's really my focus now that I've retired from my clinical practice and my research.
6:49 Yeah, we, we, we are going to talk about all those things that I told you we're going to talk about before the show about supplements and all of that.
6:57 But now I want to hear more about this.
6:59 Can you talk to us a little bit more about, about gain?
7:03 Well, let me walk you through the practice.
7:06 Yeah, OK, and, and before I do that, I guess my thesis is the following.
7:12 All almost 8 billion of us now want on the planet is happiness, and our brains are wired in ways that apparently interfere with our ability to be happy.
7:22 So we really, none of us are really as happy as we'd like to be.
7:25 Why is that?
7:26 One is our brains are hardwired to have a negativity bias.
7:31 We tend to remember the negative and forget the positive.
7:33 There's examples of that all around us,.
7:38 Go ahead.
7:38 I think you're gonna say, isn't that like a survival instinct do you think from from way back when?
7:44 Well, no, I think it is.
7:45 I think that the negativity bias is one and the other one was, is we're very distracted by the past and future, and happiness lives in the present moment.
7:55 And I think that obsession with the future and the past and the negativity bias are hardwired for a survival benefit.
8:04 So we go back.
8:05 100,000 years and you know, early Homo sapiens is keeping the fire going in their cave with their family.
8:13 And they had to be worried that there could be a saber-toothed tiger lurking outside the mouth of the cave, and they were exposed to constant threats and dangers.
8:20 And so if they were wary, if they were Kind of focusing on the negative and, and catastrophizing what's the worst thing that might happen.
8:29 They tended to live longer.
8:30 They had more offspring, and so the genes that code for these personality traits, if you will, became more prevalent in the population.
8:39 Simple as that.
8:39 So this negativity bias, this obsession with the past and the future.
8:44 So if you're gonna, you know, if you're really under constant threat.
8:47 You want to focus on your past because you want to make sure that you learn from your mistakes and you don't continue to repeat the same errors.
8:55 And you also have to be focused on the future for the reasons that I just described.
8:59 And so it's, you know, a little bit hard just to sort of relax and be mindful of the present moment when there might be a predator that is about to attack you and your family.
9:09 So I do think those Attributes of this negativity bias and this obsession with the past and the future are hardwired into our brains, but They're no longer really adaptive in most cases.
9:21 I mean, we do want to think about the past because we still want to learn from our mistakes and we want to savor positive memories.
9:28 We want to focus on the future to the extent that we're prepared to put food on the table and we can plan for wonderful events and so on.
9:36 So in those cases, the Thinking about the past and the future are adaptive.
9:42 But beyond that, they're really maladaptive.
9:43 And when you combine this with our negativity bias.
9:47 Take the obsession with the past, we tend to ruminate over the past, and with our negativity bias, this generates a lot of regret and shame and things like imposter syndrome.
9:58 And then with regard to the future, we, we overthink the future and with our negativity bias, we generate a lot of fear and anxiety and, and that negativity that really contributes to depression and then fear and anxiety with regard to the future.
10:12 These are, you know, the major problems that confront our mental health today.
10:18 So, the good news is, our brains, though they be hardwired in these ways that are maladaptive most of the time.
10:26 We have this amazing quality called neuroplasticity.
10:28 So we could actually change the way we think.
10:32 So the gain practice is really geared toward changing the way we think, so that we think in a more adaptive, positive, present manner, and we can be happier.
10:45 And so we can kind of walk through those things if you'd like.
10:48 I would love to walk through those things and you're talking my language.
10:51 I mean, my book is literally called Change Your Mind to Change Your Reality, and I'm, I'm so excited to hear it from your point of view and everything you have to share.
10:59 Well, you know, it's interesting, Kris, the the the truth is very simple, you know, and it's universal.
11:05 So when you hear the truth from one person, it's remarkably similar to the another person's version of the truth, you know, the fundamentals are what they are.
11:13 , so the game practice, let's say, is really embracing our neuroplasticity and changing the way we think and exist.
11:24 And so we get up in the morning, we open the blinds, maybe there's some lovely blue light that activates our circadian rhythm and gets us going, and we do our morning hygiene thing and then we find a comfortable place to sit.
11:37 Hopefully in a quiet area of the house, and we close our eyes, and we first focus on our breathing.
11:43 So we slow the inhalation down through our nose, maybe to a count of 3, and then we pause to a count of 3, and then we let the breath go without effort to a count of 4.
11:56 So, in to a count of 3, pausing to a count of 3, exhaling to a count of 4.
12:01 If each of those counts are 1 2nd, then our respiratory cycle is 3 + 3 + 4 equals 10 seconds, and our respiratory rate is 60 seconds divided by 10, equals 6 breaths a minute.
12:15 And that activates our vagus nerve and autonomic nervous system.
12:19 It slows our heart rate, it lowers our blood pressure, it lowers our blood sugar, our serum cortisol.
12:25 We could talk more about the, the benefit of those, but that puts us in the right sort of frame of mind and body.
12:32 And then we just go through a self-guided contemplation of the gain elements.
12:37 So, first, that for which we're grateful.
12:40 So I'm grateful for my relative health.
12:44 Living in a relatively safe place compared to others in the world, of course, Ukraine, Gaza, elsewhere, we're so fortunate.
12:52 We have so much for which to be grateful.
12:54 Our family members, our community, the ability to do this work, you and I.
12:59 So we sort of contemplate those things for which we're grateful, and we link these.
13:04 Ideas to our breath.
13:06 So we're breathing slowly, deliberately, intentionally.
13:11 The Iongan is intention, again, they're all interrelated.
13:15 And we go through this gratitude contemplation, just 40 seconds, 45 seconds, and then we transition to the a in gain, which is acceptance and You know, the world does not comport with our parent wants and needs at all times.
13:30 And so there are things that bring us discomfort or even pain that we can't control, that we can't change.
13:37 And just as the serenity prayer would have it, we're really well served by accepting the things that we don't like that we can't change.
13:45 So we may Think of something uncomfortable or even painful, and imagine actually bringing that experience closer and closer and opening our chest and opening our heart and bringing that thought or experience into our heart.
14:00 And as we slowly and deeply breathe, we sort of nourish this experience, this unpleasantness, until we really are OK with it.
14:11 And then we transition to the Ion game, which is intention.
14:15 And again, we're linking all of these to our slow, deep, deliberate breathing.
14:20 And here we, first of all, may just focus on our present experience cause our one of our primary intentions is to be more present.
14:27 , because that's where happiness, excuse me, that's where happiness lives, so.
14:34 We link our deep breath to just focusing on our present experience, the pressure of the chair against our body.
14:41 , I live kind of between San Francisco and San Jose International Airport, so it's common for me to hear an airplane going by in the distance.
14:49 I'll focus on that for a few seconds.
14:51 Focus on my breath.
14:53 Just bring my focus back to the slow, deep breathing.
14:56 And just spend 30 seconds focusing on our present experience.
15:00 We're we're learning how to be present, how to really focus on our present experience.
15:05 And then we transition to the end in gain, which is nonjudgment.
15:09 And again, while breathing slowly and deeply and deliberately, Maybe we picture an image of the earth apparently suspended in space, one of these beautiful NASA images, and it's clear to us that the earth is beautiful, but it's just a planet.
15:24 It's not intrinsically good or bad.
15:28 So we contemplate with our deep breathing, the earth is just a planet, it's neither good nor bad.
15:34 There's really no judging the earth, and it's only logical for me to think, I'm just a person.
15:40 I too am neither good nor bad.
15:42 I just am the human being that I am.
15:46 I am the human being that I am, and we kind of settle with this I amness for a few of these deep slow breaths, no judgment.
15:56 And then we return our focus just to the breath, and then we slowly open our eyes and we're ready to go out in the world.
16:03 And what happens is, the more we focus on these gain elements and link them to our breath.
16:10 The more we have those light bulb moments where when our experience and our thoughts are not in keeping with these elements.
16:19 So when we're being ungrateful, when we're kind of whining and complaining about something that's, let's face it, small stuff, or when we're resisting.
16:28 Something that's uncomfortable, depersonalizing our friend with whom we're having a conflict, saying, oh well, you know, shouldn't worry about them because of blah blah blah.
16:38 Or when we're being unintentional and we're just sort of lapsing back into our negativity and inability to be present, or when we're being judgmental of others, the world, and, and most specifically ourselves, a light bulb goes off.
16:52 So, you know, we do our gain meditation.
16:55 We have a cup of coffee, we get in the car, we're driving to work and somebody driving in the left lane, pulls over into our lane without using a turn signal.
17:03 Maybe they're a little too close for comfort.
17:05 We immediately start making these judgments about the driver, right?
17:09 A light bulb goes off.
17:10 I just did my gain meditation.
17:13 There is no judgment.
17:14 There is no good and bad.
17:15 And so the more we have these light bulb moments, the more we redirect our thoughts into the domain that we intend them to, to reside in.
17:26 And, and so it's a, it's a, it ignites a process of frequent.
17:32 Adjustments in our thinking that constitute rewiring of our brain.
17:38 Thank you so much for sharing that.
17:39 I was, first of all, it's beautiful and I was feeling myself be really calm as you were talking.
17:45 I was like going through it in my own mind.
17:48 And I think it's so important what you said, because if we don't have those reminders, if we don't.
17:57 If we're not conscious of our thoughts and our belief system and our actions, we're going to just rewire, we're going to just keep wiring those same negative pathways, right?
18:05 And nothing is ever going to change.
18:07 So starting to become aware of that is where all of this starts.
18:11 And I also really like.
18:14 The non-judgment piece, especially, and I love that you said.
18:20 You're not good or bad, and, and no one's good or bad.
18:24 No one's pure good or pure evil, right?
18:26 And you could say the same for objects or circumstances or things people say or do to you or situations, right?
18:33 Everything is neutral until you place meaning on top of it, right?
18:37 But based on your past experiences, on the filter, the lens through which you view the world.
18:42 And I think that's a cause of so much of our suffering is that we start to blame outside events and other people for our own happiness or unhappiness.
18:54 Would you agree with that?
18:56 Oh, absolutely.
18:57 And, and most significantly, we blame ourselves.
19:00 But you know, it's, it's interesting.
19:02 The other day I was listening to my colleague at Stanford, Robert Sapolsky.
19:06 I don't know if you're familiar with his work, but he's, he's a primate biologist, but he's a brilliant guy and, he talks about free will.
19:14 I think he just published a book where he concluded that we don't have free will.
19:19 The reason that he concluded that is that You know, I, let's say I'm observing you and you're, you're doing something, you're having some action.
19:28 , did you do that of your own free will?
19:31 His point is that Our behavior is really guided by a combination of our genetics and our environment.
19:40 And so, let's say I'm, I'm unhappy, I tend to be a little insecure, and I sort of attribute it to my relationship with my father.
19:49 You know, you go to a therapist, you're gonna be asked about your early childhood experiences and your parents, your parents and attachment and these things.
19:57 So, You know, my father didn't really attach with me.
20:00 I don't think he gave me, let's say, unconditional love.
20:04 I feel I felt like I had to earn it with him and so now I feel like I have to earn everybody's Respect or even just them liking me.
20:14 So I kind of blame my father for the way I am.
20:16 But then my father is, was the way he was because of his father and his mother and his circumstances.
20:22 So, you know, he's really not to blame.
20:25 He's just a product of his own genetics and his own upbringing and environment.
20:30 And on and on and on and on.
20:32 And so I think this is sort of generally, maybe a bit of a tangent, but the, the, the basis for Robert Sapolsky's conclusion that we don't have free will, because we are a product of our genes and our environment.
20:45 And so our behaviors are simply a reflection of that.
20:48 The thing I like about it, I'm not sure I agree with him, and, and to me, actually, it doesn't matter whether we have free will or not.
20:55 But the thing I like about his narrative is that There's no blame.
21:00 You know, if things are kind of determined to be the the way they are, and our behavior is our genetics and our environment, then there is no blame, right?
21:09 There's no judgment.
21:09 You can't blame somebody for For behaving the way they do because they're Sort of preconditioned to behave that way.
21:17 It's not their fault.
21:18 So I like extracting that element from his narrative, and yes, I, I, I'm, I think.
21:25 All of these gain elements are very closely intertwined.
21:28 So if I'm not gonna judge you.
21:31 For the way you behave toward me, let's say, or toward another person.
21:35 I'm accepting you for who you are without judgment.
21:38 So you see here, non-judgment and acceptance are kind of intertwined.
21:42 , you know, I can accept something.
21:47 Understanding there's going to be some negative stuff going on in my life, but I'm grateful it's over, overly balanced by all the things for which I have to be grateful.
21:56 So gratitude and acceptance are linked.
21:58 So these four concepts are really very closely interwoven, and, and, you know, that's why they resonate in part so much with me.
22:07 Yeah, no, that's, that's super interesting about the no free will thing and it just to speak on.
22:13 Other people in my, in my experience, when other people are lashing out at you or being rude or anything like that, they're coming from a place of their own pain and their own fear, right?
22:25 Like no one's doing anything for the most part, people aren't purposely trying to hurt you.
22:29 No one's doing things because of you.
22:31 They're just wrapped up in their own head, right?
22:33 But you're just worried about how it affects you, like you're taking it so personally.
22:37 , there's this poem I love by Lane Thomas called On the Day You Read this, but there's this fantastic line in there that says, no one's really judging you when you walk into a room, and all they really want to know is if you're judging them, right?
22:48 Everyone's just in their own head.
22:50 , but to go back to the free will thing, like, Environment versus genes, don't we have epigenetics nowadays that says the environment turns on and off the genes, so like you actually have more power than we previously thought, like before we could just like say, oh, it's just genetics, but now it's like, oh, you can actually flip genes on and off based on your inner environment and your outer environment.
23:14 Absolutely.
23:15 I mean, the epigenetics is the mechanism by virtue of which our environment affects our interacts with our genetic makeup.
23:23 To code for proteins and enzymes being turned on and off and and resulting in You know, the phenotype that we express,, including our behavior.
23:34 Now, Robert Sapolsky, I believe, would say that Yes, there's all this epigenetics.
23:40 That doesn't mean that you have control over turning on and off these genes.
23:44 You, you're not really in control of your epigenetics.
23:47 Your epigenetics are the result of your environment and to some extent your genetics themselves.
23:53 So, you know, you can really go down that rabbit hole, but to me, the point is that I brought that up in the context of non-judgment because as you suggested, I think that when people act in a way that may be interpreted as hostile or rude or unkind or uncharitable toward us.
24:12 It's really a reflection of their own unhappiness, right?
24:16 Because somebody who's secure and happy.
24:19 is benevolent toward other people, right?
24:22 And somebody who is touting their own Worth or importance is doing so because they're insecure about their self-worth and importance.
24:32 So, you're right, there's no point trying to judge that person or their behavior.
24:38 It just is what it is, and it, it, you know, and as you said too, it does reflect their own unhappiness.
24:44 So there's no reason to, it doesn't help to criticize them or to harshly judge them.
24:51 I want like everyone to just pause and rewind and listen to that again, because what you said is just, it's just gold.
24:59 And if you take away nothing from this whole episode except for that, take it away, you know, people, you cannot.
25:08 Happy people are not out there judging other people, right?
25:12 I, you know, I post a lot of content online, and I say this all the time, like, the internet trolls, I almost feel bad for them because their lives are so bad that they're out there.
25:21 They're out there trying to make someone else feel horrible, right?
25:25 Like in criticizing someone else.
25:27 So, you know, if, if there's someone like that in your life, listeners, just, just know that they are coming from a place of their own unhappiness.
25:37 OK, so I I love everywhere we're going.
25:40 I love everything you're about.
25:42 I had no idea we were going to hit the spiritual side of this today.
25:45 I'm super excited.
25:46 I also want to talk to you about the more science part though, because you are a longevity expert, and I haven't had a longevity expert on my show before.
25:54 So I know you have a tripod of health that you like to talk about.
25:58 So I'd love for you to get into that a little bit with us.
26:01 Well, you know, I think the the gain elements are the 4 pillars of our mental and spiritual well-being and the 3.
26:11 Pillars or maybe the three legs of the tripod that support our physical well-being, our sleep, exercise, and nutrition.
26:17 And again, these are very closely interrelated.
26:20 Say you are experiencing chronic stress, which leads to emotional and physical fatigue called burnout.
26:28 That's what burnout is.
26:29 And you're not sleeping well, so you're, you're fatigued during the day and I could tell you as somebody who's spent too many nights up most of the night working at the hospital, involved in an emergency.
26:44 Neurosurgical or cardiac procedure.
26:47 Nothing hits the spot the next day as I'm walking around in my scrub and going past a nursing station, the intensive care unit.
26:55 And some lovely family has given the unit a big box of chocolate candies.
27:02 I can tell you when I'm sleep deprived and really fatigued, nothing hits the spot like one of those chocolates.
27:09 It's got sugar, it's got fat, you know, two of the essential ingredients in what we call comfort foods.
27:16 So I tend to have a deterioration in things I eat when I'm really tired.
27:21 One, because I don't take the time to prepare things that are as healthy as I want, but also because I'm craving sweet things, for example.
27:29 And so you get a little bump in your energy level that's very transient, then you crash and you're even more fatigued.
27:35 And then you're too fatigued to exercise.
27:38 Well, exercise contributes to good sleep, so then you don't sleep as well, and on and on and on.
27:43 So I think again, as the gain elements are very closely intertwined, so are sleep exercise and nutrition.
27:49 Which are really the fundamentals of our physical well-being.
27:53 And I would even say exercise plays a huge part in your mental and emotional well-being too, right?
28:00 No, your physical wellbeing supports your mental wellbeing and your spiritual well-being, no doubt about it.
28:06 If you're Sitting in the morning and you're doing your game practice, and you're just feeling like you ate way too much and maybe you drank a little too much, and you're, you're gonna be very distracted by the physical maladies that you're experiencing.
28:20 So, you know, you have to put your physical well-being, maybe even first, and then that can support your mental and spiritual well-being too.
28:29 Plus you might be a little bit cranky and it's a little bit harder to not judge everything, right?
28:34 All of the above.
28:36 So, so what do you, what do you recommend as far as diet and exercise?
28:41 What are your go to?
28:45 Well, you said you were a vegan earlier, you didn't eat meat or when you were a teenager, not a vegan.
28:49 I'm a non-meat eater, so I, I will, you know, for a few decades,, beginning when I was 18, I was a vegetarian.
28:56 I was never a vegan and then I started eating some fish again.
29:01 Just for reasons of practicality and, and also for health.
29:04 , and that's been my diet essentially until now, but, but, you know, we could talk about sleep, exercise, or nutrition for hours individually, but as far as nutrition, you know, the fundamentals are, you know, more of a Non-meat diet, you know, more of a plant-based diet, I think, is it a rule of thumb.
29:26 , you know, the Mediterranean diet, which is the basis of, nutrition for many of the people who live in these blue zones that are centenarians, they live to 100 or more.
29:39 They eat,, mostly a plant-based diet,.
29:43 Very healthy oils, so fish for some of the oils in fish like omega 3s,.
29:52 Lots of fruit, vegetables, a lot of colors which provide these phytochemicals,, that are so vital,.
30:02 You know, nuts, seeds, you know, so, you know, basically mostly a vegetarian diet with some fish, maybe occasional meat is OK too.
30:12 , lots of different colors, fruits and vegetables.
30:16 , so what you eat is important and when you eat is important.
30:20 I, you know, I, I firmly believe in intermittent fasting in one of its various manifestations based on the science.
30:28 , and it's interesting just kind of as an aside,, we can get into this in more detail if you want, but The science that we rely on for things like longevity really come from species that live a short life, right?
30:44 Because if we're gonna do scientific studies in Living things and try to intervene in ways that may or may not make them live longer.
30:54 We want to really study beings that have a short life because it's much more practical to.
31:00 That's funny.
31:00 I haven't thought about that before.
31:02 If you, you know, if you want to study longevity, it's hard to take primates that may live to 30 or 50 years of age and randomly assign them to two groups and have one group be, you know, standard primate diet and the other group be some intervention, something new in their diet or intermittent fasting and see how long they live.
31:20 Well, you have to wait 50 years in order.
31:23 To determine that.
31:24 So, a lot of this research starts in yeast.
31:27 So part of the, the art and science of interpreting these data are what can we take from lower life forms.
31:35 And say this is more than likely true in humans as well.
31:39 So we can look at yeast, say, if you take yeast and you intermittently fast them.
31:45 So you take two groups of yeast.
31:47 Yeast are kind of cool because they tend to replicate a certain number of times and then they die.
31:53 So they have a predictable number of divisions, if you will, and then they stop dividing and die.
31:59 It's, it's very predictable.
32:01 So you can take two groups of yeast and And put in the culture media in in the in the baseline group what they normally use for nutrition.
32:12 And then you could take the other group and you can say for 16 or 18 or 20 hours of the day, they're in a non-nutritive environment, and then you introduce something for a short period of time that's very nutritive, and you could see that those intermittently fasted yeast live 1.5 times longer than the control yeast, or you can Restrict the caloric.
32:37 Basis for the diet in in one in the intervention group of yeast or rodents, for example, or or nematodes, worms, and, and Not restrict the caloric quantity or content of the other group, and you could see that the caloric restriction group live longer.
32:55 And this is repeatable in in yeast, in worms, in rodents, and in higher animals.
33:02 So when you see this sort of reproducibility, you can really begin to embrace it's likely true in humans.
33:09 So this is the basis of intermittent fasting, although there are data in humans now,, looking at a number of different biomarkers, that intermittent fasting is healthy and beneficial, and that could be Limiting what you eat to an 8 hour period of the day and fasting, therefore, for 16 hours, or doing a 24 hour fast once a week, or, you know, some people are proponents of even like a 3 day fast once a month.
33:35 There's a lot of different ways to practice intermittent fasting.
33:39 I, I tend to eat within about an 8 hour period every day.
33:43 Can you talk a little bit?
33:44 Well, first of all, I had no idea that we use yeast as a subject matter.
33:48 I thought you were going to say mice.
33:50 Well, first you do yeast and then worms and then mice.
33:54 And then you move up to it.
33:55 No, that's super, that's super fascinating that it carries along the whole way, you know, I've known about it in humans and dogs as well, you know, even our breeder was like, you know, fast your dog every once in a while.
34:07 , can you talk to us a little bit about the science behind that?
34:11 What does intermittent fasting do for the body?
34:14 Well, I think the short story is, And I'm gonna make an analogy to say you're living in your house.
34:24 And you have, you're not lacking for anything.
34:27 You have a lot of money and there's a lot of houses on the market.
34:31 And so, if you want to upgrade, you're gonna buy another house.
34:36 You're gonna look outside your house at all the houses available, and you're gonna buy another house, and maybe then you're gonna buy another house.
34:43 So, this is during plentiful times, both in the housing market and in your pocketbook.
34:48 Now take the situation where, you know, there's a lot of inflation, you're not feeling so wealthy.
34:54 There's not a lot of homes available, but you want to upgrade your your living circumstances, so you fix your own house.
35:02 So when you're in a time of relative lack, you turn inward and and work on repairing what you have, rather than growing into something bigger, right?
35:11 And so our cells do that as well.
35:14 When our cells are in a situation where they're exposed to a lot of nutrients.
35:19 And times are plenty.
35:20 There's a lot of protein, there's a lot of carbohydrate.
35:23 , they're gonna divide, you know, your cells want to divide most of them in your body, not all of them, but they're gonna wanna divide and grow.
35:32 But when they're relatively deprived of nutrients, when they're in a state of lack, they're gonna turn inward and do repair inside their house, inside the cell.
35:44 And so this means when a cell is exposed to Minimal conditions or a lack restricted calories, for example, they're gonna turn inward and work on repairing DNA fragments,, what we call reactive oxygen species or free radicals.
36:01 They're gonna try to fix all the stuff that's not going quite well inside the cell.
36:05 The mitochondria in the cell that produce energy, we're gonna really focus on strengthening those mitochondria, maybe even making more mitochondria when we're in a state of lack.
36:16 And so intermittent fasting.
36:18 , and let's say metformin, which is used in type 2 diabetics, it can, it lowers blood sugar.
36:27 , Intermittent fasting is creating a a bit of a stress, a bit of a situation of lack.
36:35 That your cells will appreciate and turn inward and do reparative processes.
36:40 And it turns out that that's gonna make your cells healthier, and that's gonna promote longevity.
36:48 So, those things that expose yourselves to a restrained amount of calories and and glucose and lipids and so on,, protein are gonna promote longevity.
37:01 , promote repairing reactive oxygen to species, DNA fragments, etc.
37:06 So that's what intermittent fasting does.
37:08 You, you, you give yourselves what they need for their health over a limited period of time, but then you're gonna expose them to stress.
37:16 And you know, there's a it it it's kind of a a manifestation of the saying, if it doesn't kill you, it makes you stronger.
37:23 What doesn't kill you makes you stronger.
37:25 So you're not gonna stress yourselves enough to kill them.
37:28 But you're gonna stress them enough to encourage them to to turn inward and really repair things that are wrong with them inside and, and that's, you know, sort of a a layperson's view of the benefit of intermittent fasting and the mechanism of its benefit.
37:44 Thanks for explaining that, and I really like that metaphor of the house.
37:48 I've heard that it also helps get rid of all the old cells or even cancerous cells or just the the stuff that's a little broken.
37:55 Is that true as well?
37:56 Yes, I mean, it is true that when, you know, when cells are exposed to calorie restriction, they not only look inward and and repair DNA fragments and so on, but they tend to want to recycle material that's in their environment, because they're not getting enough exogenous protein, let's say.
38:17 So they're gonna look elsewhere, where can I find some protein?
38:20 So, You know, I talked about the fact that yeast will divide a certain number of times and then they die.
38:25 So when your cells divide,, you know, as most people may be able to remember from high school biology.
38:34 You have a pair of chromosomes.
38:36 And I mean, you have 23 pairs of Chromosomes, somatic chromosomes, and so if you're gonna, one cell is gonna divide into two cells, the sort of growth phase, each chromosome has to replicate.
38:50 Right?
38:50 The chromosome has one chromosome has to replicate into two chromosomes.
38:55 And so it has to have a mechanism for copying itself.
38:58 And In order to do that successfully, it has to have, like the little caps at the end of your shoelaces, it's got little caps at the end of the chromosomes that protect the chromosome and allow them to divide efficiently.
39:14 So the tips are not frayed and they don't make mistakes when they're producing another chromosome when they're dividing.
39:20 And those little shoe shoelace cap-like structures are called telomeres.
39:25 And as we age, our telomeres on our chromosomes get shorter.
39:30 And they get shorter and shorter and shorter, and pretty soon the tip of the chromosome is fraying, excuse me, and the cell is no longer able to divide.
39:41 And that's called senescence.
39:43 So that cell is an old cell.
39:45 It's still hanging around, but it can't divide anymore.
39:49 And so it's, it's not useful.
39:52 And in fact, it's harmful because those senescent cells release pro-inflammatory molecules.
40:00 So you really would like to get rid of those.
40:03 You'd like to kind of, you're cleaning your house, you're sweeping up all the debris, you're getting into the corners, you're getting rid of all the dust and so on.
40:11 And that's analogous to getting rid of these senescent cells.
40:15 So when your healthy cells are exposed to caloric restriction, for example, They Activate mechanisms by virtue of which the senescent cells are scarfed up.
40:29 Cause we want those nutrients that are in those cells.
40:31 The cells aren't helping us anymore.
40:33 Let's take the proteins and the other useful elements of those cells and reuse them for new cells.
40:40 So this is a A process called senolysis.
40:45 It's destroying the old senescent cells that are no longer useful and are harmful.
40:51 And sometimes those senescent cells actually die, and then the process of getting rid of them is called autophagia.
40:59 Because we send in cells that will actually eat up those dead cells.
41:04 , so it's auto, because it's our own cells eating up our own cells, haja to eat.
41:10 So this senolysis and autophagia is very important, and those processes are stimulated by caloric restriction.
41:17 And just intermittent fasting throughout the night, if you eat an early dinner, oops sorry, if you eat an early dinner and a late breakfast is enough time to allow your body to start to clean all that up.
41:29 Yes, I think the minimum really is probably 14 or 16 hours.
41:35 So if you eat within an eight hour period, say between 11 a.m. and 7 p.m., Then you're fasting for 16 hours and you're not really exposing yourselves to To lack or stress for several hours after you eat because you're still digesting, you still have, maybe your blood sugar is still a little bit elevated and so on.
41:54 , but after maybe 6 or 8 hours, your cells are beginning to get stressed.
41:59 If you're awake, you might be getting hungry.
42:01 And that's good.
42:02 That hunger is good.
42:03 It means you're, you're stressing your body a little bit.
42:06 Yeah.
42:08 My gosh, I feel like I could, like you said, I could talk to you about all of this forever.
42:12 I, you know, it's, I have to say it's rare to find a doctor who's also a biohacker.
42:19 And I wonder why that is.
42:21 , but I do want to ask you about exercise and then I want to talk about supplements, and I know we don't have a ton of time.
42:27 So really quick, what's your, what's your exercise that you recommend for longevity?
42:34 Well, I think, Kris, you really need a combination of resistance training, and there's a number of benefits from resistance training,, bone density, especially for postmenopausal women,, but also a number of other benefits of, of strength training, let's say.
42:49 Whether it's with free weights or cables or, you know, bands or whatever resistance training.
42:57 And then cardio or aerobic training is also very important and there's a lot of People who have strong feelings about, you know, you're maximizing your oxygen consumption or your VO2 max, high intensity training, etc.
43:12 I think just maintaining A heart rate that's around 80 or 85% of your maximum for at least 30 minutes.
43:19 , you're in so-called zone 2, where you can't really speak in complete sentences.
43:25 That's a good way to know you're in zone 2.
43:27 You're not totally breathless, but you, you're not able to comfortably speak in complete sentences.
43:32 And then balance and core are really important.
43:36 So, you know, I would say if I was, you know, really helping to design an exercise program for somebody that had an hour a day to commit to it.
43:45 It would probably be 2 or 3 resistance sessions.
43:48 , probably 3 cardio sessions, and then,, 1 or 2 sessions where they're really focused on core strength and balance.
43:59 Falls becomes,, become an incredibly Important contributor to Morbidity and mortality in people over the age of 60 or 65.
44:10 We all kind of know, like an older uncle or grandparent who fell and broke a hip.
44:16 Maybe they weren't that old.
44:17 Maybe they were in their mid to late 70s, and they never really recovered from that experience from surgery and, you know, they were a little bit out of it for several days after surgery, and they never really recovered.
44:28 And then You know, we lose muscle mass very quickly when we're older and it takes a long time to get it back.
44:34 So it's a combination of some effect on the brain of general anesthesia and You know, lack of exercise for a period of time and then loss of muscle mass and it becomes kind of a self-propagating process.
44:45 So working on your balance, especially when you're older, core is incredibly important and, you know, we could talk at length about that.
44:52 I think if you can incorporate core training into your resistance program, that's ideal.
44:59 What about yoga?
45:00 Cause I, I owned a yoga company.
45:02 I just sold it last week.
45:05 Well, I mean, yoga is great both for the spiritual benefits and also, you know, for stretching and, and even strength.
45:12 I mean, you know, way better than I do.
45:13 There's all kinds of yoga.
45:15 You can build muscle with Iyengar yoga and, and other forms of yoga.
45:19 So no, I think yoga is, can incorporate, you know, several of these things, even the cardio.
45:25 Yep, I think it checks off all those boxes, definitely core, definitely balance.
45:29 , I just had to throw that in there.
45:32 , thank you though.
45:34 That's, that's helpful.
45:35 And yeah, you know, I was always that person that was just walking and doing yoga, but recently I've started the strength training and some cardio in there, and it feels good to mix it up throughout the week too, right?
45:47 To do different exercises.
45:49 It just something about it just works with your body, right?
45:52 Absolutely.
45:53 And so your body is telling you something important.
45:55 You know, we, we peak with regard to our muscle mass.
45:59 All things being equal in our mid-twenties, and then after that, if we're not, we don't have the eye and gain being intention of maintaining our muscle mass.
46:10 , we lose about 10% of our muscle mass every decade, so between 25 and 75%, we've lost half our muscle mass, unless We have intention and purposefulness and we're actively doing something about it.
46:24 So that's where the resistance training really comes in.
46:28 It's preservation of muscle mass and, you know, I think you have to factor in that when you get older, just By chance, over time, you're more likely to, you know, your parts begin to wear out a little bit.
46:40 Like, in the last 5 years, I had a big back operation that was very successful.
46:44 I'm grateful.
46:46 And I also had a shoulder operation, and it's amazing how quickly at my age, you lose muscle mass when you're recovering from surgery and you're not exercising.
46:57 And then how long it takes to get it back.
46:59 So, it's good if you kinda have a little bit of extra muscle mass.
47:04 Sort of planning for times when you're gonna have some setbacks as you get older and just to it up a little.
47:09 Absolutely, because, you know, things don't heal as well.
47:12 So, you know, you have degradation of cartilage and, and, and tendons, tendon might rupture, you need surgery.
47:19 So you have to kind of think ahead and, and, you know, give yourself a little bit on the plus side to prepare for those little setbacks.
47:27 I'm even feeling that I'm in my late 30s and like I told you, I just had a baby 11 weeks ago and I had a C-section and I had like a gnarly cold the last 3 weeks of my pregnancy.
47:35 So I, I was pretty out for.
47:39 I don't know, 5 weeks without moving, which is a lot for me.
47:42 I have to move every day.
47:44 And even that, it's, it's taken some to get it back.
47:47 It's pretty, it's humbling for sure.
47:50 Yeah, just give it another 20 or 30 years.
47:53 Yeah, for sure.
47:55 I'm not looking forward to that part.
47:56 , OK, I want to touch on supplements.
47:59 Do you have a little bit more time?
48:01 I'm gonna have to have you back on also if you're if you're up for it because there's just, you know, you're just such a wealth of knowledge in so many different areas, and I feel like we're kind of just getting a bird's eye view of everything, but it would be fun to deep dive into some stuff more.
48:15 , so talk to me about certain supplements that you recommend for longevity, because I, I got a little bit of a list here from you and there's a lot I haven't heard of and I'm curious to learn.
48:28 Well, you know, it's an interesting, it's fascinating topic, of course.
48:32 , you know, we You know, as a scientist,, We like to have proof that something is effective and safe.
48:44 And how do we get that proof?
48:46 Well, you know, we like to have what we call RCTs or randomized controlled trials.
48:50 So, again, I was sort of referring to, you take two groups of yeast or nematodes or mice or dogs, God forbid.
49:00 And you have one of them do their baseline control diet or exercise or whatever it is that you're interested in studying.
49:08 And then the other group has an intervention.
49:09 It has caloric restriction or intermittent fasting or certain type of exercise or nutrients or supplements.
49:17 And you, you measure with as objectifying as you can, the differences in the two groups over time.
49:24 And that's called a randomized control trial.
49:26 Each, each subject or animal is randomly assigned to either control or intervention group, and then you have designed the trial and you have the right number of animals according to your power analysis and and all the statistical elements are in place.
49:40 And then even a better way of proving things is you take You actually do a study of many randomized controlled trials.
49:50 So, you know, this is,, even the best quality evidence.
49:54 So do we have that quality evidence with regard to a lot of supplements in humans?
49:59 And the answer is no.
50:01 So you have to take what is sensible from studying lower animals, and you and I were talking about, you're doing longevity studies, you want to study animals or Or yeast that don't live very long because you'll get your results a lot quicker if you're exposing one group to an intervention that you hope will prolong their life.
50:19 So the data starts in In life forms like yeast and then graduates to slightly higher life forms like worms or nematodes, and then rodents like mice or rats, and then maybe higher animals like dogs and I know, I feel that way too.
50:36 I've got two of them,, and maybe non-human primates and, and then you look at the evidence.
50:42 So we don't have that high grade evidence for a lot of the supplements.
50:47 So my,, feeling is if, if a supplement activates a gene in yeast, and we have that gene also.
50:57 And,, the data are very compelling in yeast, and then studies are done in higher life forms and are also compelling.
51:04 And there's really no downside.
51:06 That's a supplement that I would consider for myself.
51:09 And so, and it also has to make sense in the scheme of human biology, of course.
51:13 So, say, we age and as we age, there's a very important compound in our body called NADH.
51:22 And it's very important for You know, we talked about reactive oxygen species and how molecules, when they become oxidized, may become free radicals and, and dangerous molecules.
51:33 So we want to have antioxidants in our body, and NADH is a potent antioxidant.
51:39 And it tends to wane in our bodies as we age.
51:42 So, it, it's sensible that we take supplements that promote increasing our NEDH concentration.
51:49 Or our NAD NAD plus concentration, and these are supplements.
51:56 Like nicotinamide riboci, which is NR, or nicotinamide mononucleotide or NMN, and they promote More NAD in our bodies.
52:08 And these have been shown in lower animals, the NR and NMN to promote health and longevity in lower animals.
52:14 And so I'm sufficiently compelled that I take NMN, I think it's a useful supplement.
52:21 It's totally benign and it's a natural, naturally occurring compound.
52:25 That's one supplement I think is important.
52:27 , and there are several others.
52:30 I think that, you know, drugs or supplements like resveratrol,, there are sennolytic and autophagic.
52:40 Supplements like berberine and spermidine and corsidine,, and they're actually available combined into one pill.
52:49 So I personally take that.
52:51 It's actually resveratrol, corsidine, berberine, and spermidine in one pill.
52:55 , you know, so I take a few supplements like that, and then there's drugs.
52:59 , we were talking about metformin, which is used to lower blood sugar in type 2 diabetics.
53:05 , that is associated with longevity, both for its glucose regulation and other effects.
53:12 And then there's even a drug called rapamycin.
53:16 Which is probably one of the most,, we have one of the most strong grades of evidence for rapamycin in the appropriate dosing range as a longevity drug.
53:26 So personally, that's a drug that I take.
53:29 , so those are a handful of things that I take.
53:32 What is the last one do?
53:33 , rapamycin,, so rapamycin is named for a fungus that was discovered on Easter Island, Easter Island being known to the locals as Rapanui, hence the name rapamycin, and rapamycin interacts with the molecule that's actually named after rapamycin.
53:57 And that molecule is called Tor.
54:00 TOR in capital letters and that stands for target of rapamycin.
54:05 because the chemical that the that the drug promotes is named after the drug.
54:10 might usually be the other way around, but, so this, this tour, little M to M being mammalian target of rapamycin.
54:20 MTOR1 is pro-inflammatory, and we know that inflammation, like chronic stress, is one of the processes that ages us.
54:29 And low grade chronic inflammation and chronic stress predispose us to aging, which might be considered a disease, and the diseases associated with aging, which are cardiovascular disease.
54:42 Neurodegenerative disease like dementia, metabolic syndrome, which is obesity and type 2 diabetes, and cancer.
54:48 Those are the four diseases of aging and aging itself is considered by many to be a curable disease.
54:55 , so, rapamycin, which downregulates or limits the activity of this pro-inflammatory molecule, MTOR1.
55:05 Has a lot of very high grade evidence supporting its use, not in high doses which would be immunosuppressive, and the drug was originally used as an immunosuppressive drug for people with organ transplants, but in a low dose that's taken once a week rather than a high dose every day.
55:23 That's super interesting.
55:24 , so, as far as NAD, can you take just straight NAD or you have to take those other supplements that help boost it?
55:33 Well, you know, that's an interesting question, Kris.
55:35 There are kind of conflicting data on how well absorbed NAD is.
55:39 In other words, do you take it orally, is it, does it get into your bloodstream readily, and then if it's in the bloodstream, does it get taken up by cells readily?
55:50 So it has to get absorbed into the bloodstream and then absorbed by your cells from the bloodstream into the inside of the cell where it would work.
55:57 , and, and there's sort of conflicting data on that.
56:01 .
56:02 That's why a lot of people get IV NAD, so a lot of these sort of longevity or health span clinics or promoting IV NAD.
56:11 I think that if you take an NAD precursor that is well absorbed, you're going to be well served.
56:16 I'm, I'm not a big proponent of Going to a clinic and getting a lot of IV stuff, even though, you know, that was my business for 35 years.
56:25 Not longevity drugs, but anesthetic drugs and other drugs that kept people alive in surgery in the intensive care unit.
56:33 So if you could take something orally, rather than getting it as a shot like B12 or as an intravenous agent like NAD, I would go for the oral route of administration if possible.
56:46 Even the just taking the precursors.
56:49 OK, that's interesting, yeah, because, you know, I, I geek out over the biohacking stuff.
56:54 I told you a little bit about that before we jumped on air, but, you know, it's all over that, that world, right?
57:00 All over TikTok, all over YouTube, people are getting NAD injections or not injections, the drips, so.
57:07 Thank you for explaining that.
57:09 And then queitin, I don't know that much about it, but my one of my my best friend's husband is a functional medicine doctor, and he he loves all this stuff too.
57:18 And when I had COVID, he was like, take that.
57:20 That was the thing he wanted me to take.
57:22 So that's my like limited knowledge of it.
57:24 So tell me a little bit more about that.
57:25 What does that do?
57:26 , well, corsidin is a drug that a supplement rather, it's not really a drug that promotes, it does promote senolysis.
57:34 And it activates a gene that produces a protein called sirtuin.
57:41 And there are yeast have 5 different cartoons, we have 7.
57:45 So that was an example of we sharing 50% of our genes with yeast.
57:51 If you have a a high grade evidence that something activates a gene and creates a protein in yeast, we have the same gene, you're off and running to showing that this thing might have benefit in humans.
58:03 And so forsidin is one of those supplements.
58:05 It activates sirtuin.
58:07 sirtuins are a very effective prolongevity.
58:11 Genes and, and proteins.
58:14 And then also there's evidence that cors it activates senolysis, which, as I said, is kind of the recycling of these old cells that have their chromosomes have short telomeres.
58:25 They're not really dividing anymore and they're hanging around and kind of leaking these pro-inflammatory molecules into the circulation.
58:33 So corinin has has benefits in, in those regards.
58:40 I, I love you, I thank you.
58:43 You are seriously a wealth of knowledge.
58:44 I love that I can ask any random thing and you just know everything about it.
58:48 , I'm really enjoying this conversation.
58:51 I hate to have to cut it off soon.
58:55 I have to ask you, what is one thing I can do right now to make a difference in my baby's life?
59:04 Well, you know, I'm writing a book about teenagers called A Mindful Teen, and the most important thing parents can do for their teenagers is Embrace Let's just say mindfulness, to be calm, to be grateful, to be accepting, to be intentional, to be non-judgmental, to bring in the gain elements.
59:24 That's the most important thing that a parent can do for their teens, because their teens are watching us closely, right?
59:31 And they're gonna take their cues from our behavior more so than our words.
59:35 And I think that even goes down to having an infant.
59:39 I think, you know, when, when a parent And I don't know what the evidence for this is.
59:44 It's just my suspicion that when a new parent is very anxious and Just sort of Radiating anxiety and, and tension, it, it, it affects the baby.
59:57 And I think on the other hand, if, you know, if you're calm and make eye contact and you're sort of emanating and radiating love and presence and mindfulness, maybe play a little bit of Mozart in the background.
1:00:12 I, I think that sort of Comes through and I think, you know, just like even our pets absorb that, right?
1:00:19 I mean, I think my dogs know how much I love them because I look them in the eyes and I just, you know, bring myself into the present moment.
1:00:26 It's the same thing I did with parents who had babies and children that were not doing well in the intensive care unit may be dying.
1:00:34 You get to a point where all you can do is really be present with them, and I, I feel that way about parenting as well.
1:00:40 That's a really beautiful answer.
1:00:41 I really appreciate that.
1:00:43 And absolutely, I mean, especially, especially with pets too.
1:00:47 I, have you ever noticed that anxious people have anxious pets?
1:00:52 They pick up on it for sure.
1:00:56 Yeah, yeah.
1:00:57 You know, we, we had to decide as a pediatric anesthesiologist, sometimes we'd like to bring the parent into the room, into the operating room or anesthetizing location.
1:01:06 So that they could be with their child when their child was going off to to sleep, it's not really sleep, but becoming unconscious, and you know, we have to make a judgment, how anxious is the parent.
1:01:16 Because if the parent's an anxious and they're radiating this anxiety and maybe even freaking out when their child has suddenly become floppy and going to sleep, that's not going to help anybody, the parent or the child.
1:01:29 So, yes, I think the the The way a parent can be present.
1:01:34 Versus anxious, has a huge impact.
1:01:37 Yeah, absolutely.
1:01:40 All right, so thank you for hanging out a little bit longer.
1:01:43 I really appreciate it.
1:01:45 , if, if people want to find your work, do you have a website, where can they find your books?
1:01:51 Give us all the info.
1:01:52 Well, the book is Gain Without Pain, if you, they can Google that.
1:01:56 Gain without Pain and my last name Hammer, or go to my website, which is Greg Hammer MD.com, G R E G H A M M E R MD.com.
1:02:05 , there's a wealth of information there.
1:02:07 There's a lot of media, probably our podcast will be on my website soon and access to the book and how to get in touch with my publicist and me.
1:02:18 Thank you so much for coming on today.
1:02:20 I really appreciate you.
1:02:21 And if you're listening, please like, share, subscribe.
1:02:25 If there's someone that you think could benefit from this episode, please send it to them and let's all try to help each other out.
1:02:32 Thank you so much.
1:02:33 Have a beautiful rest of your day, everyone.
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